The art of financial planning and what is the state of business air travel with aviation expert Mike Hatten.

Episode Transcript

Intro:

Welcome to the Practical Tax podcast, with tax attorney Steve Moskowitz. The Practical Tax podcast is brought to you by Moskowitz, LLP, a tax law firm.

Disclaimer:

The information contained in this podcast is based upon information available as of date of recording and will not be updated for changes in law regulation. Any information is not to be considered tax advice or legal advice and does not form an attorney/client relationship. Further, this podcast may be construed as attorney advertising. You should see professional consultation for your individual tax and legal situation.

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Chip Franklin:

Welcome to Practical Tax, I’m Chip Franklin. This is tax attorney, Steve Moskowitz. Steve, it’s interesting when we talk about taxes and finance, is Siri in the United States, is it the same in every state? Are there geographical differences?

Steve Moskowitz:

Oh sure, because a majority of states have their own tax system and different states treat the tax a little differently. So when you’re giving tax advice, it’s not just Federal IRS, you have to consider the state or the states that you’re involved with.

Chip Franklin:

I mean, I know Texas and Florida, they don’t have income tax and that’s a big decision in a lot of people’s moment deciding where to move. And we have a lot of people from California going to Texas, right?

Steve Moskowitz:

Oh, there’s a tremendous drain of people out of California now, Chip. And there’s a number of states that don’t have a state income tax. Of course, the one that we joke about a little bit is Alaska. Alaska has a negative state income tax. They actually pay you to live there. But the joke is, do you want to live in a place where they pay you to live there?

Chip Franklin:

All right. Our next guest is a certified public accountant, a certified fraud examiner, business advisory and virtual CFO solutions. Then I hope I get her last name right, Lydia Desnoyres. Did I get that right, Lydia?

Lydia Desnoyres:

Phenomenal. Spot on, Chip.

Chip Franklin:

Thank you so much for being here.

Lydia Desnoyres:

Thank you.

Chip Franklin:

That’s Steve Moskowitz, right above your head.

Steve Moskowitz:

Hi, Lydia.

Lydia Desnoyres:

Hi, Steve.

Steve Moskowitz:

Boy, we probably have a lot to talk about. Before I was a tax attorney, I was a CPA.

Lydia Desnoyres:

Did you go to the dark side or you think you left the dark side?

Steve Moskowitz:

Well, I didn’t want have to work as hard as you do, so I became an attorney instead.

Chip Franklin:

All right, so both of you deal with tax strategy. So let’s start with this question for both of you. When meeting with a client for the first time, what’s your first question? And let me start with you, Lydia.

Lydia Desnoyres:

It depends on when they’re calling. If they’re calling on April 14th my first question is, have you lost your mind? Just kidding. The first question is, what’s your story? What has happened in the past? Do you typically owe? Just to get a feel for how things have been in the past. Once I get to doing the work and then I direct my questions on more planning and strategy for the future. But usually it’s a, what’s your scenario? What’s going on?/p>

Chip Franklin:

Steve?

Steve Moskowitz:

Well, we’re very into planning. So what I like to do if somebody calls me on April 14th, I will explain to them an extension is extension of time to file, not an extension of time to pay. And then what I try to explain to the clients is that your tax return should merely be a summarization of a year’s worth of tax planning. Because I look at the Fortune 500. And that’s why I became a tax attorney because when I went to law school, I already had a bachelor’s and master’s degree. I was already a practicing CPA doing taxes, but I didn’t want to be the person to tell a client, well you can’t do this and you can’t do that./p>

I looked at the Fortune 500 and I said, how do those giant companies make all that profit and legally not pay taxes? That’s what I want to learn how to do and I want to do it for companies a lot smaller than the Fortune 500. So that’s why I went to law school. And the bottom line is there is so much here because as we all know, the tax system is a system of incentives to get us to do things that they can’t order us to do. That’s where tax planning really comes from. So the bottom line was, I’m very, very into that with clients.

And even if somebody calls me on April 14th and we file the extension, even then there’s some things we can do. For example, with a lot of the retirement plans, there’s over 20 different types, with a lot of them you can set them up, up to the time of filing the return, including extension, which means that most of the time you have to write the check by December 31st year one, to have the deduction in year one. With a lot of the pension plans, you can write the check in year two, set up in year two, and still deduct it in year one.

But there’s so much that can be done. So basically what I would say is, I talk to the client, listen to them and also what are their goals? Some people are live life now, other people are retirement, other people, their kids. So even if I was representing twins, they might be identical financially but have very, very different wants and needs. How about you Lydia? How do you do it?

Lydia Desnoyres:

That’s spot on in terms of the planning and stuff. Everybody’s different, right. I actually had that example where you have two people. One person who referred a coworker, and same role, same salary, same everything. Two different goals, two different outcomes, right. And so it’s definitely important to understand what their goals are. There are some people who like big refunds, right, so they’re okay with overpaying during the year because to them that’s important.

Steve Moskowitz:

Ask them if they’d be willing to make you an interest free loan during the year, you’re giving my-

Lydia Desnoyres:

Exactly. Exactly that. You try and have that conversation, again, you have to know your audience, you have to know your clients, right. So I try and tell them, hey look, you’re literally just letting the government hold your money interest free. Why not take that, put it into a savings. There’s so many other things you can do during the year. But again, some people are just like, well, you know what, I use that as a savings. When I get the refund I pay my property taxes with it. I’m not disciplined enough or whatever the case may be.

Steve Moskowitz:

Disciplined. That’s the thing, is because if they took the money they’d spend it. That’s it.

Lydia Desnoyres:

Right, exactly. So you got to know your audience. And so then obviously that will lend us itself to a completely different conversation because maybe they need financial planning and financial coaching. But when we’re talking about the tax strategy, it’s understanding your audience and like you said, having that conversation, that dialogue, understanding their comfort zone, meeting them where they are, right. And then you eventually build that trust, right, and then you can guide them and hopefully they listen and take your advice.

Steve Moskowitz:

Another big thing was are they married or are they planning on changing their marital status.

Lydia Desnoyres:

Exactly.

Chip Franklin:

I’m going to compliment you guys on something and it reminded me of this conversation when I was in college. I had a girlfriend who was majoring in accounting, and I was a math major, but it just was something I could do. I didn’t love it. She loved it, but it wasn’t the numbers. And it bothered her when people said, you’re a numbers person. She goes, I’m a people person. And both of you guys are, both of guys represent yourselves real well. Lydia, I don’t know you as well as I know Steve, but Steve has represented himself well over the years and it’s helped him because people, they’re going to come. I mean, it’s like a confessional, right?

Steve Moskowitz:

Oh, absolutely.

Lydia Desnoyres:

Oh, right.

Chip Franklin:

And so people have to trust you. They got to trust, not just your acumen, but you, the essence of you. And I think people forget that about this business, right?

Lydia Desnoyres:

I joke around when I was first in the trenches of tax season, and then I don’t do a lot of tax work anymore by the way. But I would joke around when I’m done and collecting my fee, I’m like, all right, only a portion of this was for tax preparation, the rest was for a therapy session, right.

Steve Moskowitz:

Well that’s why our license is attorney and counselor at law.

Lydia Desnoyres:

There you go. You see, I don’t have that. But sometimes you play therapy. But you develop these relationships. I was reflecting the other day, a client who just told me the other day, she’s traveling because her son is getting the white coat ceremony, he’s becoming a doctor or just graduated, right. And my response was like, oh my God, were we just taking the driver’s education credit for him? And I’ve never met this kid but that’s how you develop these relationships with the whole family.

And it’s like, oh my God, we went from getting the credit from him getting his learners permit to the college credits for going to school and then now he’s no longer there, now he’s graduating and it’s like the tax returns tells a story. And so building that relationship and being a people person, that’s really part of it. And I caught a little bit of your last talk with your last guest about communication and stuff and simplifying things, right.

Steve Moskowitz:

It’s so vitally important.

Lydia Desnoyres:

Right. Right. I’ve had clients who are like, I’m really bummed that I owe the IRS but Lydia, you really explained it in a way I understand and now I know what to do so that I don’t have to owe them again.

Chip Franklin:

Can I ask you guys, I want to ask you a question because most people think of financial planners and accountants and tax attorneys as when things are bad. But one of the things that’s so hard for people too is also rapid growth and how to deal with that. And I want to hear from both you, and let me start with you, Steve. If a client comes in and their business is just kicking butt, right. There’s a lot of decisions to be made there. And it’s an emotional thing too. Is that a difficult part of a business when they have rapid growth?

Steve Moskowitz:

It can be a real fun part if you control it properly. But if you don’t control it properly, it’s like driving a race car real fast. That’s fun, unless you crash it into a wall. So you have to be able to drive a race car differently than a street car. And what’s so vitally important is yes, a lot of times people will think of our professions as oh, something bad happened and a lawyer showed up. But there could be something good. Chip, if you won the lottery I bet I’d be your first call and that would be something good.

Chip Franklin:

You would. Now that’s without a doubt, you would be. But Lydia, what about you? I mean, when you have a client that things are going really well, do you sometimes have to throw a little cold water on and say, we got to think about when things aren’t going to be going real well. Is that how it works?

Lydia Desnoyres:

Absolutely. I mean, obviously there’s a way to communicate that without damping their… People are excited. I mean, you go into business to grow, right. To build and have a profit. So you definitely want to continue to encourage that. But to Steve’s point, it’s doing it in a sustainable way, right. So it’s having that conversation is like, let’s enjoy this growth and let’s do it in a way that we can sustain it for a long period, right. Let’s be strategic with what we do with that growth. How are we reinvesting into the business? Of course, reward yourself, give yourself a bonus for your hard work and stuff. But how are we reinvesting to make sure that the business can continue with that growth? And so-

Chip Franklin:

That’s important what you said there about rewarding oneself, right?

Lydia Desnoyres:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Chip Franklin:

I mean, Steve, we’ve talked about this I think, in the past too, about what good is it to be successful if you don’t enjoy it along the way?

Steve Moskowitz:

Of course. And also I wouldn’t think of it as cold water, Chip. I would think of it as advice and council. Let’s go back to that race car. You drive the race car at a certain speed on the straightaway, but when you’re taking that turn you have to know how to hit the brake a little bit and go around so you don’t flip on over.

Lydia Desnoyres:

Right. Right.

Chip Franklin:

One more question I guess, Lydia, for you, and I do this a lot and I apologize. I love to have intelligent women with their experience and acumen, talk about women sometimes. Are there different financial strategies for single women in their 40s than would be for single men in their 40s?

Lydia Desnoyres:

I mean, I think there are different strategies for different people, right. Gender, where you are in life, can definitely play a factor. But it really depends on what your goals. So right back to what Steve was talking about is really understanding the goals. And we can expect them to be different depending on gender, where you are in life. Are you a single person who wants to stay single? Are you a single person who wants to change that? Do you plan on having kids or you don’t want kids? So the strategies will change depending on what the goal is.

My business is focused, it’s tailored towards women-owned businesses and law firms because we do have unique challenges, right, that the male gender doesn’t really experience. And so I love working with that. We’re coming a long way. In one way we’re more supportive of one another. I think in the past women have had that challenge of feeling, well, there’s not that many spaces available for us so we have to compete with one another. And now we’re letting go of that and we’re supporting one another more intentionally, right. And so that plays a role in how we behave in business, right, how we present ourselves, how we show up in conference rooms, how we show up in our meetings, how we show up for our clients.

So I work with women a lot on mindset, on self-limiting beliefs and overcoming those challenges that are both external, right, based on how other people behave towards us. And a lot of it though is internal, how we see ourselves and how we think we’re being perceived. And so I do a lot of work with that. So definitely I think there are some differences in strategies between genders and so forth.

Chip Franklin:

You guys are great together because there’s a yin and yang here. I mean, that doesn’t happen… No, seriously. We have guests all the time and sometimes it connects, sometimes it doesn’t. But this really does. I love your enthusiasm. And Steve, I can tell, loves talking about this. Will you come back please?

Steve Moskowitz:

I love talking about this, Chip.

Chip Franklin:

I know you do. Will you come back again please, Lydia? That’d be great.

Lydia Desnoyres:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Steve Moskowitz:

Maybe we’ll [inaudible 00:14:11].

Chip Franklin:

Okay. Be well and you have a great weekend and I hope to talk to you again real soon, okay?

Lydia Desnoyres:

Lovely. Have a great weekend. Nice to meet you, Steve.

Chip Franklin:

Thanks again. And we’ll put your information up at the end of the show so people can contact you. Thanks to you so much again.

Chip Franklin:

You’re going to love this one, Steve, because this again another email, okay. This guy, he says, I’m writing a book about golf. I am a writer. I’ve written before. I want to deduct my greens fees when I play. How many and how do I prove it to the IRS?

Steve Moskowitz:

That’s a toughy. And what happens is, I know exactly what he’s talking about. And what we have to do is overcome Internal Revenue Section 183, hobby loss rules. We have to show that what this person is doing is a business and not a hobby. There’s a nine point regulation that goes along with it. You don’t need all nine points. You don’t have to have five out of nine. But what happens is this goes all the way back to 1969 when the Congress said that when you go into something, that you had to make a profit.

And the Congress said, no, no, no, the only thing you have to do is attempt to make a profit. And if you suffer a loss, you can still deduct it if it’s a business. So you have to show the proper intent. And that’s what the hobby loss rules are all about. And the nine point regulation under the hobby loss rules to show that what you’re doing for the activity is for a business. Now, the area that the writer is talking about is a more difficult area. If he said, I’m working on making a more efficient jackhammer, that would be a lot less suspicious, because nobody works on compression of a jackhammer.

Chip Franklin:

Well, you know what, he’s going to call. I gave him the phone number, I said to call you, but I thought we’d read this one today.

Steve Moskowitz:

Good. I’m glad if he does. Because I’m going to have to go over this regulation with him and when certain areas-

Chip Franklin:

Jackhammer.

Steve Moskowitz:

Golf. Another one that you have to watch out for, guys that are writing a book on good restaurants. So they take their wives out to the restaurant every night. Another one is travel. People are going to Hawaii and Paris and all other kinds of places. So someday they’ll write a book. Now there are books written about Hawaii and Paris and-

Chip Franklin:

Golf.

Steve Moskowitz:

But the rules here are pretty strict. I’m happy to go over that with him because there’s that nine point regulation if he wants to do it.

Chip Franklin:

I love it.

Steve Moskowitz:

He better become very familiar with that nine point regulation.

Chip Franklin:

Oh, that’s good. So good. I gave him good advice.

Our next guest is an aviation expert and a former commercial airline pilot. And as I speak today, I had a flight just canceled coming up in a few days. So Mike Hatten is with us here on Practical Tax with tax attorney, Steve Moskowitz. Hello, Mike.

Steve Moskowitz:

Hi, Mike.

Mike Hatten:

Hi, Chip. Hi, Steve. It’s very nice to be with you today. Thank you.

Chip Franklin:

Great to have you here. So how many hours did you record in the air as a pilot?

Mike Hatten:

I have approaching 28,000 hours total. That’s both in helicopter in the military and in previous career and at the airlines over the years.

Chip Franklin:

Wow. A lot of stories in those 28,000 hours, I bet, right?

Mike Hatten:

And some of them I can even tell.

Chip Franklin:

The airline industry right now is a big part of Steve’s acumen too, the travel industry. We were talking earlier to John Handlery from a Handlery Hotel in a previous episode. When business book flights, and there’s a million things we could talk about from the points and when people get to keep their points. I want to talk to Steve about that in a second. Does that count as income if I get free flying and they give me points. But I guess the first question before we get to that is what is the state of the airline industry right now? Is it getting better? Is it getting worse? Is it stronger? Is it hard to determine?

Mike Hatten:

Well, it’s a bit hard to determine but I will say that it has gotten better. And I reference that by, I look at the cancellations and delays every day on the government website. They appear to be better. They tick up when there is a significant weather event somewhere in the country that slows down travel everywhere.

Chip Franklin:

It’s always been that way though, right? Pretty much?

Mike Hatten:

It’s always been that way. But now that there’s a shortage, it’s more important because what happens is you keep reserves in these larger bases and now that there’s not as many reserves when something happens and a crew doesn’t make it to their flight, they don’t have someone to replace them.

Chip Franklin:

I flew United for a long time and I had thousands, I mean, thousands of points. Hundreds of thousands of points at one point. And so an accountant somewhere years ago, and I’d forgotten about it until I booked you today to ask, Steve. How does the IRS deal with that, Steve, when I fly a lot and I get these points and fly for free?

Steve Moskowitz:

The IRS says that is not income so enjoy them.

Chip Franklin:

Was there pushback at some point on that?

Steve Moskowitz:

They took a look at it, but the bottom line is they made the decision that it’s not income so you don’t have to worry about it. And if you think about it, you got those points because you paid for them. So when you’re flying on that airline trip, you could basically pay for one flight or two flights. It’s something you’ve paid for and the IRS took the position that no, it’s not income.

Chip Franklin:

Does that go across the board? If I go to hotels a lot, they give me free hotel. I mean, to build points, the IRS stays away from all that?

Steve Moskowitz:

That’s the position the IRS currently has, yes.

Chip Franklin:

That’s good. Now, do you think that some of that pressure came from businesses that knew how important it was for that loyalty?

Steve Moskowitz:

Well, I’m sure it did. Look, that’s a major incentive for people. It’s all about loyalty. That airline A wants you to fly with them. Well, you know what, where you go you could choose airline A, B or C. Well, why do you choose airline A? Oh, well, I get that. Then you get the credit card from airline A and now you say, well, I could take that trip to Paris and get a discount, get an upgrade, maybe get a free ticket. And remember, when we think of the IRS, the IRS is like a cop. They’re enforcement. The IRS does not make the law.

Chip Franklin:

Right.

Steve Moskowitz:

Congress makes the law and business people have a significant effect on Congress people. And if you think about it, what’s good for business is usually good for the American economy. I know a long, long time ago there was a famous statement, what’s good for General Motors is good for the country, but there’s an awful lot of truth in that. You want businesses to prosper. Because if they prosper, they hire more people who buy things, who pay taxes.

In turn if business is bad, business let people go. Now they don’t pay any taxes because they’re not making any money and then they go on government support and now the government’s writing them a check. So yes, the government has a real strong interest in seeing business prosper.

Chip Franklin:

Well, macroeconomics are sometimes hard for people to understand and then people take advantage of that misunderstanding in ways that either help their particular cause or business or whatever. Couple of questions. How many planes are in the air right now here in the middle of the day on a Friday, Mike? Do you worry about sometimes the air travel or the air traffic controls and everybody, they do a good job?

Mike Hatten:

I think they do an excellent job. There’s been some interviews that I’ve been interviewed about air traffic controller shortage. But they have safety, I call them fuses, in place or circuit breakers. No, I think it’s fair to say that safety is at a high level. The number of planes in the air. For instance, one airline, the airline that I work for, we have approximately 3,300 flights per day. Now they’re not all in the air at once, but if you multiply that by the other airlines, you’ll see quite a few in the air.

Steve Moskowitz:

I’ve always felt a lot safer up in the air on an airplane than I did in the car on the way to the airport.

Chip Franklin:

Oh yeah. But what about the pilots? Are they being overworked? And air traffic controllers, I’ve heard nightmare stories about that job. Has that gotten better?

Mike Hatten:

I think it’s gotten a little better for the controllers. Jacksonville, Florida seemed to be the control center that was the choke point for the east coast. And the east coast, believe it or not, affects the Midwest and the west coast. And so the FAA has moved some controllers down there to relieve that. That’s helped. Airlines have cut flights.

I think American Airlines I read, has cut 31,000 flights coming up between now and the end of the year to relieve some of the workload and that’s an incredible amount. Now, the true test will be, we have Labor Day coming, we have Thanksgiving coming and we have Christmas coming. So this will tell us if the measures they’ve taken have been effective.

Chip Franklin:

Are we going to see the return of discount air? Will that always pop up or are we getting to a point where it’s just, I mean, they seem to never last, right? I mean, going back to Air Florida. I mean, there’ve been once throughout my life, probably two dozen. What’s the future of that? Does that continue to pop up?

Mike Hatten:

It does continue to pop up. Some of the airlines are starting to mature. They discount airlines as we go forward. However, in the last year, as a matter of fact, almost one year ago, Avelo Airlines, I don’t know if you’ve heard of that, A-V-E-L-O. Their first city was in California. They’re headquartered in Houston. Andrew Levy, he’s a longtime veteran of the airline industry, he founded that company and started it and they are doing well.

Chip Franklin:

What’s the break point? I know in a hotel they’ll say we have to have 70% occupancy to make a profit. When I get on an airplane, sometimes I fly from San Diego to Oakland, and I’ve been on planes with 12 people. What’s crazy, Steve, I’m sure you’ve done this before, get on the small planes and they tell the heavy people to sit in a different seat because they’re trying to balance the plane. That’s not too encouraging. But how many people…

Steve Moskowitz:

No, that’s not true.

Chip Franklin:

That happens, right, Mike? It does, right? On smaller planes.

Mike Hatten:

Well, it probably does. I know sometimes there’s some tension when someone has to sit next to someone a little calorically challenged as I like to call it.

Steve Moskowitz:

That must be a really small aircraft.

Mike Hatten:

But I know your previous guest talked about things before and it’s really a communication problem and how they handle it.

Chip Franklin:

When I first-

Mike Hatten:

Now, you mentioned 80% or 70% break even factor for the hotels. When I started in the early ’90s at an airline, that was about 50%, just over 50% break even for the airlines. As a matter of fact, Gordon Bethune famously said on TV, he was a Boeing executive and then a CEO at Continental Airlines, that the Boeing designed the airplanes so the middle seats were to be empty for people’s comfort. Now, it’s over 80% is the breakeven factor for the airlines.

Chip Franklin:

Wow. So remote working, is that is going to hurt travel? I mean, we talk about it a lot on this show about how office space and some of the positive parts of it. Obviously, being able to work at home and maybe not have to travel as much. I mean, this is not Zoom but this is, as you can tell, this is a pretty good format. You can do meetings here this way. It’s not the same as shaking somebody’s hand. I mean, Steve and I are getting together in a couple weeks to see each other, have dinner. It’s nice to be able to do that and to get on a plane and go do that. Are we seeing an effect of that pandemic surge in Zoom business?

Mike Hatten:

Well, we certainly did during the pandemic. Zoom traffic was way up. Traffic didn’t slow down during the pandemic, it came to a stop, and it panicked the airlines. They didn’t know what to do. And it returned as fast as it stopped. So they weren’t prepared for that. And I don’t fault them for that. It’s just they took steps to save their companies and they had no idea what was going to happen.

I do know people, I have a couple of clients that I work with that tell me that every segment of their business is dependent upon shaking someone’s hand, face to face. And they got those contracts and they got those sales deals because that they were face to face. So they’re itching to get out and they are out. 80% of the business travel of 2019 has returned.

Chip Franklin:

Good.

Steve Moskowitz:

And Chip, another area to think about is remote workers that otherwise would’ve been sitting in an office all day now have the ability to travel someplace and do their work in Hawaii or Puerto Rico. A lot of countries are offering visas, come work here for a year or so.

Chip Franklin:

And one of the great ironies of all this is that it turns out an airplane might have been one of the safest places to be around people during Covid, after all. The way they recycled the air and with the HEPA filters and if you wore a mask. I mean, I’ve flown, knock on wood, I mean I got it once. But for the most part I flew a lot and I didn’t get sick from an airplane. In fact, I think that somebody challenged, I think a United CEO or Delta challenged somebody to prove that somebody ever got sick or got Covid on an airplane. I don’t know how you do that but I mean, we do know that it’s safe.

So you feel comfortable that we’re moving forward and for business travel is always the leading indicator of how the airlines are, and that’s picked up 80%. Is the fuel cost, maybe in the cost, the only thing keeping it getting back up over a hundred percent, maybe?

Mike Hatten:

Fuel and labor are the most significant costs an airline faces, and fuel has ticked down a little bit. However, a lot of the CEOs, I know the CEO of the airline I work for, he had a plan to deal with the fuel costs and to be profitable at fuel costs once that air traffic did return.

As far as Covid, yes, the airlines are very safe. The filters on the newer generation airplanes, the new generation 737, 777s, 787s, and the newer Airbus airplanes, the filters are HEPA filters. They are surgical surgery-suite quality from hospitals and I’m very confident on that. One secret I did was I washed my hands every time I got a chance when I was on the airplane and I was sick very little with colds and things like that over the years.

Chip Franklin:

No, I don’t think that’s funny. That was one of the things that came out of the pandemic was flu disappeared because people were taking care of themselves. Crazy.

Mike Hatten:

Yes.

Chip Franklin:

Mike, thank you so much, my friend. Maybe we’ll catch you in the skies someday.

Steve Moskowitz:

Pleasure talking to you, Mike.

Chip Franklin:

Get you back on and to tell us some of those stories of the 28,000 hours. That’s the stuff I want to hear.

Mike Hatten:

It’s been a pleasure. I’d be happy to come back anytime. Thank you both.

Chip Franklin:

Be well. Thank you so much. Again, Mike Hatten, aviation expert, nice enough to join us here on Practical Tax. That was fun, Steve.

Steve Moskowitz:

All great guests.

Chip Franklin:

You be well. Look forward to seeing you next time.

Steve Moskowitz:

Thanks. See you then.

Chip Franklin:

Okay, that’s Steve Moskowitz, tax attorney. This is Practical Tax. Be well.

Outro:

Thanks for joining us on the Practical Tax podcast with tax attorney Steve Moskowitz. To hear more and view more podcasts, go to moskowitzllp.com/practicaltax.